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What is the dhahiri position with regards to what falls under tasweer?  

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AbuAbdillah
(@abuabdillah)
Member

Assalamu 'alaykum this is an issue which is difficult to find a consistent ruling on.

Do photographs fall under the ruling? And also do the realistic animations in videogames fall under the same ruling? Jazak Allahu khayran.

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Posted : 14/06/2020 9:12 pm
qalbi1435
(@qalbi1435)
Still heart . . .

Wa'alaikum alsalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.

Great question. I hope someone with accurate knowledge on the matter can answer. In essence, it has to do with whether or not the word used in the Hadith encompasses --- linguistically speaking --- the kind of photography and images we have today.

If not, we would have to see whether or not some other evidence requires making an exception of the original ruling to which images and photography would normally apply: Allowance, on the part of their being worldly things, unrelated to worship, in and of themselves.

Wallahu a'lam.

"[I fight] only for something deep in my heart . . .", — Captain Harlock.

Maktabat Madrasat Al-Qur'an Wal-Hadith Li Dirasat Al-Qur'an Wal-Hadith Wal-'Amal Bihima. (Established in my heart: Rajab 9, 1435.)

https://schoolofhadith.blogspot.com

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Posted : 14/06/2020 9:32 pm
d_dhahiri
(@d_dhahiri)
Coffee + Hatred

I asked Shaykh Abū Wā'il ad Dhāhirī regarding photography and whether they fall under “الصور” and he responded by saying, paraphrased:

لو بحثت عن كل كلمة وردت فيها لفظة الصورة في الكتاب والسنة لوجدتها بمعنى الخلق والصنع لاغير ...

If you look for the word الصورة in the Book (i.e. Qur'ān) and the Sunnah you would find it means to create or produce/manufacture nothing else.

الرسم والكاريكاتور هي صورة لغة وشرعا وأعتقد أنه لاتجوز لأنها خلق وإيجاد ...

Drawing and caricatures falls under الصور in the language of the Sharī'ah and I think it is not permissible because it is to create and compose.

بخلاف الفوتغراف فإنها تعكس صورتك الحقيقية التي أوجدك الله عليها

Unlike photography, which is a reflection of your true image which Allāh created.

ولافرق بين الفوتغراف والمرآة

There is no difference between photography and a mirror.

فلو كان الفوتغراف لايجوز فكذلك الوقوف أما المرآة لايجوز لأن هذا سيترتب عليها صورة مقابلة

If photography cannot stand (is not permissible) the mirror would take the same ruling.

ولاعبرة بقول البعض أن الفيديو يجوز ...لأنه متحرك وهذا من أعجب وأغرب ماقرأت ...عجيب أمرهم والله

And from them (who say images are not permissible) are those who allow videos because it is not static, and this is strange. By Allāh this is strange (command) of them.

ومالفيديو إلا صور ثابتة تتحرك لاغير

Videos are just (composed of) static images.

هذا جزاء من أفتى بالرأي والقياس ..

And this is the punishment (result) of (using) R'ay and Qiyās..

And Allāh knows best.

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Posted : 15/06/2020 1:29 am
abu abu muhammad
(@abu-abu-muhammad)
Member
Posted by: @d_dhahiri

I asked Shaykh Abū Wā'il ad Dhāhirī regarding photography and whether they fall under “الصور” and he responded by saying, paraphrased:

لو بحثت عن كل كلمة وردت فيها لفظة الصورة في الكتاب والسنة لوجدتها بمعنى الخلق والصنع لاغير ...

If you look for the word الصورة in the Book (i.e. Qur'ān) and the Sunnah you would find it means to create or produce/manufacture nothing else.

الرسم والكاريكاتور هي صورة لغة وشرعا وأعتقد أنه لاتجوز لأنها خلق وإيجاد ...

Drawing and caricatures falls under الصور in the language of the Sharī'ah and I think it is not permissible because it is to create and compose.

بخلاف الفوتغراف فإنها تعكس صورتك الحقيقية التي أوجدك الله عليها

Unlike photography, which is a reflection of your true image which Allāh created.

when you take a photograph are you not creating by pressing of the button when you take the shot?

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Posted : 22/08/2020 10:14 am
d_dhahiri
(@d_dhahiri)
Coffee + Hatred

@abu-abu-muhammad

 

You are not creating anything because that image is literally you. It is light bouncing and being read by the camera similarly to the eyes seeing.

 

When you see something it is light bouncing from the object to your eyes. That is why you can't "see" anything when there is no light.

 

And pressing a button doesn't change this. As the Shaykh have mentioned, do we make mirror impermissible? No. Even though it is a reflection of us (light bouncing to the mirror back to our eyesight, thus we see ourselves). We created the mirror, does that mean we created the reflection we see?

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Posted : 22/08/2020 1:15 pm
abu abu muhammad
(@abu-abu-muhammad)
Member

when you take a photograph (i presume we are talking about digital cameras here) isnt that photograph at the end of the day a 'recorded frame'? so when you display that photo 'recorded frame' on a screen are you not in essence falling under the prohibition of tasweer?

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Posted : 22/08/2020 1:30 pm
d_dhahiri
(@d_dhahiri)
Coffee + Hatred

@abu-abu-muhammad

As far I am aware, and being an amateur photographer, cameras all have mirrors or reflectors (prism etc.), they all work via getting light and turning the light information in to what you see. Again you have not "created" anything, you have captured light.

The Shaykh actually understands how cameras work - many people do not, and make false presumptions. This is similar when people prohibit sleight of hand and illusions and saying this falls under what the Sharī'ah means by magic, just because they don't understand how sleight of hand and illusions work.

And if you believe that capturing light and therefore capturing the reflection is the same as creating an image as what was meant by the Sharī'ah then videos would be impermissible for they are just photographs taken in quick successions.

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Posted : 22/08/2020 1:42 pm
abu abu muhammad
(@abu-abu-muhammad)
Member

i know absolutely nothing about photograhy and cameras.

 

as an example lets say we are talking about a mobile phone:

when you take a photograph with the phone camera what exactly is being captured and stored in the memory of the phone?

when you go to the gallery app on the phone and bring up that captured image on the phone screen isnt that a static recorded image (which would fall under the prohibited tasweer)?

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Posted : 22/08/2020 1:50 pm
d_dhahiri
(@d_dhahiri)
Coffee + Hatred

All cameras work with prisms and capturing light - including phones. I suggest looking at how cameras work. DSLR, Webcams, phones or whatever it is - they all work fundamentally the same, which is to capture light and take that information and develop an image. Just like how our eyes take in light and develop an image.

 

Again what we see is a reflection of us. If I take a photo of myself, that is me. That's not something made up. If I draw myself, I have created something that may look like me but it isn't me.

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Posted : 22/08/2020 1:59 pm
abu abu muhammad
(@abu-abu-muhammad)
Member

coming from a different angle:

 

i download a photo on my pc and put that photo on my phone.what is that photo made up of(bits,bytes )?. when i now display this file on my phone screen its essentially the same as someone drawing a picture with a pencil on paper.

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Posted : 22/08/2020 2:07 pm
DUNAMA DIBBALEM
(@dunama-dibbalem)
Member

@abu-abu-muhammad You never answered the question as it pertains to mirrors. By your logic would not then it be haram to look into and make mirrors?

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Posted : 30/09/2020 3:12 am
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